Improving the WEB Bible

I am thinking of going through and updating, improving the WEB (World English) Bible and using it for my website and blog, and calling it the "CAB Version."

Below is my "CAB Version" of John chapter 1 -- what do you honestly think? Should I continue this?

John 1 (CAB Version):

1 In the beginning was the One who is God's Expression, and God's Expression was with God, and God's Expression fully shared in the exact same Divine Nature as God. 2 This same Expression of God was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through this Expression. Without Him was not anything made that has been made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn’t overcome it. 6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John [the one who immerses]. 7 The same came as a witness, that he might testify about The Light, that all might believe through Him. 8 He was not The Light, but was sent that he might testify about The Light. 9 The True Light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world didn’t recognize Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own didn’t receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in His character, identity, authority, and reputation: 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14 God's Expression became fully human, residing in a Temple of flesh, and lived among us. We saw His glory, such glory as of the special one-of-a-kind Son of the Father, full of merciful kindness and truth. 15 John testified about Him. He cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me, for He existed before me.’” 16 From His fullness we all received unearned kindness upon unearned kindness. 17 For the Law was given through Moses. Unearned kindness and truth were realized through Jesus the God-Anointed Saving King. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The special one-of-a-kind Son, who fully shares the Nature of God, and who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

19 This is John’s testimony, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

20 He declared, and didn’t deny, but he declared, “I am not the God-Anointed Saving King.”

21 They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you The Prophet?”

He answered, “No.”

22 They said therefore to him, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

23 He said, “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

24 The ones who had been sent were from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, “Why then do you baptize, if you are not the God-Anointed Saving King, nor Elijah, nor The Prophet?”

26 John answered them, “I immerse people in water, but among you stands One whom you don’t know. 27 He is the One who comes after me, who is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I’m not worthy to loosen.” 28 These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was immersing people.

29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He existed before me.’ 31 I didn’t know Him, but for this reason I came immersing people in water: that He would be revealed to Israel.” 32 John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven, and it remained on Him. 33 I didn’t recognize Him, but He who sent me to immerse people in water, He said to me, ‘On whomever you will see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He who immerses people in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen, and have testified that this is the Son who shares in the exact Nature of God.”

35 Again, the next day, John was standing with two of his students, 36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” 37 The two students heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, “What are you looking for?”

They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, being interpreted, "Teacher"), “where are You staying?”

39 He said to them, “Come, and see.”

They came and saw where He was staying, and they stayed with Him that day. It was about 4 PM. 40 One of the two who heard John, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother, Simon, and said to him, “We have found the God-Anointed Saving King!” (which is, being interpreted, "Christ"). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is by interpretation, "Peter"). 43 On the next day, He was determined to go out into Galilee, and He found Philip. Jesus said to him, “Follow Me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, of the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael, and said to him, “We have found Him, of whom Moses in the Law, and the Prophets, wrote: Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Joseph.”

46 Nathanael said to him, “Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?”

Philip said to him, “Come and see.”

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said about him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”

48 Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”

Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”

49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son who shares in the exact Nature of God! You are King of Israel!”

50 Jesus answered him, “Because I told you, ‘I saw you underneath the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these!” 51 He said to him, “Most certainly, I tell you, hereafter you will see heaven opened, and the heavenly messengers of God ascending and descending on the New Adam.”

Romans 9: Verse-By-Verse Study

Romans 9: Verse-By-Verse Study

Romans 9 is arguably the most controversial chapter in all of Scripture--perhaps causing more disagreements and frustration among Christians than any other.

This chapter is the "flagship" or foundation of most of the "TULIP" doctrines held by Calvinists and Reformed Theology Christians around the world. This chapter remains a confusing mystery to many Arminians, Open Theists, and other Christians, leaving them puzzled and wondering if Calvinists might be correct after all.

Romans 9 is even difficult and divisive for many Calvinists, because it appears to teach "Double-Predestination," a doctrine shunned by many Calvinists as "heretical."

Below I will be examining and commenting on each verse of Romans Chapter 9. Please add your own comments below. This should spark a lively discussion. The goal here is to discuss, debate, and then arrive at agreement on God's Holy Word.

I am using the ESV (English Standard Version) for this study, not only because it is accurate, but also because many of the people who worked on creating the ESV were influenced by Reformed (Calvinistic) doctrines. In this way, I hope to dispel any notion of choosing an "Anti-Calvinist" Bible Translation.

Romans 9:1 (ESV): I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit—

Paul begins the chapter by declaring that he knows he is speaking the truth and that the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to that fact in his conscience.

Romans 9:2 (ESV): that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.

Paul is deeply hurt and upset. (If Calvinism is true, then it appears that Paul is in deep sorrow over the fact that God chose not to save the non-elect Jews)

Romans 9:3 (ESV): For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 

Paul would rather lose his salvation, be damned to Hell forever in his sin, than for his fellow Jews to go there. The passion and love of Paul for the lost is incredible. The word "accursed" here means "eternally cursed," in other words-- Hell/Gehenna/Lake of Fire. If it were possible, Paul would trade his life for all of the Jews' lives. You can truly see the love of Jesus burning strongly in the heart of His servant Paul.

Romans 9:4 (ESV): They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 

Now Paul begins a list of special privileges, blessings, and honored positions which God bestowed upon the nation of Israel (the descendants of Jacob).

"The adoption"-- This was the adoption of the descendants of Jacob as "Firstborn" nation, the only nation on earth specially chosen by God to be His exclusive people. (Compare Exodus 4:22; Hosea 11:1; Deuteronomy 10:15)

"The glory"-- Perhaps a reference to the "Shekinah," the glorious Pillar of Cloud and Pillar of Fire that led Israel in the wilderness for 40 years. If so, this "Glory of the Lord" was none other than "The Angel of the Lord," the Pre-Human Jesus Christ.

"The covenants"-- The covenants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, David; the list goes on.

"The giving of the Law"-- The Law (including the Ten Commandments) which Moses received through angels and by the finger of God.

"The worship"-- The privilege and honor of approaching the Almighty God of the Universe in worship by offering sacrifices and praise.

"The promises"-- There were many, many promises God made to Israel: Some conditional, others unconditional. In this context (as we will see below) it probably refers especially to the promised Seed, Messiah.

Romans 9:5 (ESV): To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. 

Paul continues his list of privileges, blessings, and positions that Israel was given by God:

"The patriarchs"-- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel), and through their descendants God the Son, Jesus Christ, was born into the world.

Romans 9:6 (ESV): But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 

God's promises to Israel have not failed just because many of the Jews have rejected Jesus. Paul's argument is that not everyone who is Jewish in the flesh is a true Israelite of God, to whom many of God's promises actually apply.

Romans 9:7 (ESV): and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 

Paul is beginning to make a comparison between two different topics. In verse 6, Paul was making the argument that not every Jew in the flesh is truly a Jew in God's eyes, now Paul is using the example of how God chose the persons who would have the privilege of being the Messiah's human ancestors. Paul is going to use this example to show how God selects people for blessings, privileges, and promises.

Paul points out that not all of Abraham's children got to be in the human ancestry of Jesus--only one did, Isaac, because God selected Isaac for this privilege.

Romans 9:8 (ESV): This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 

To be honest, I am at a bit of a loss in understanding this verse here.

My best explanation and understanding of it, is that Paul is driving home his point from above: When God makes a promise to "Israel" or "the Jews," the promise is actually only made to those who believe and accept God and Jesus. 

In other words, Paul is saying "Just like when God promised to bless Abraham's descendants, but only chose one of his sons, Isaac, so also now, even though God promised to save 'Israel,' it only applies to those who believe, not to every fleshly Jew."

This harmonizes with verses 4-6 above, where Paul is making the argument that even though God promised to bless and save Israel, His promises didn't fail--instead the promises were never meant to apply to all Jews.

Romans 9:9 (ESV): For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." 

Paul now goes back to his comparison, giving more details about God's promise to bless Abraham's offspring (and produce the Messiah through his line).

If this passage is saying that God chose Isaac for salvation and rejected Ishmael, it would contradict Genesis 21:17-20, which reads:

"And God heard the voice of [Ishmael], ... Fear not, for God has heard the voice of [Ishmael] where he is...And God was with [Ishmael], and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow."

Romans 9:10 (ESV): And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,

Paul elaborates on this further by showing that God continued to select only certain descendants of Isaac for special privileges and blessings. Just as God only selected Isaac for special privileges, God is now only selecting Jacob for special privileges.

He is making a powerful point that Jacob and Esau were twins, conceived at the exact same time by the same man and woman.

Romans 9:11 (ESV): though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Paul is here making the ultimate case against salvation by works. Paul is declaring that God does not even consider a person's good or bad works when He chooses to elect someone for either a special privilege or for salvation. (As we will see in verses 30-33 below, God's choice is based on how we will respond to His call--many of the Jews were rejected because they responded to Jesus negatively, determined to pursue salvation by works instead of by faith)

Notice, this verse says nothing about God's election not being based on faith. It only says it is not based on good or bad works. In Romans 4:1-8, Paul says "faith" is in a completely different category from "works."

Romans 9:12 (ESV): she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 

This was a prophecy regarding the descendants of Jacob and the descendants of Esau. Esau's descendants would be inferior to Jacob's descendants because they would not have all of the special privileges as a nation that Paul listed in verses 4-5 above.

Romans 9:13 (ESV): As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Paul here quotes Malachi 1:2-3, which reads:

Malachi 1:2-3 (ESV): "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 

Once again, this is referring to the special privileged position the nation of Israel held compared to that of Esau's descendants, the nation of Edom. The prophet Obadiah explained the reason why God hated the descendants of Esau:

Obadiah 1:10 (ESV): Because of the violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. 

God chose to give special blessings to Jacob's descendants which He did not give to Esau's descendants, and God said that the reason why is because of their violence done toward Israel. In order to harmonize Romans 9 with Obadiah, it must be that God rejected Esau's descendants for special privileges because He foresaw what kind of violent, hateful people they would be.

Romans 9:14 (ESV): What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 

Paul knew some people would ask the question: "Isn't God being unfair by giving special privileges to Jacob's descendants and not to Esau's descendants?" Paul's answer is: Absolutely not!

Romans 9:15 (ESV): For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God explained to Moses that He chooses which people He will have mercy and compassion on-- in other words, God chooses which people get special blessings or privileges and which do not. He also chooses the basis for salvation -- He chooses to save not based on any works, but by faith instead (see Romans 9:30-33).

Romans 9:16 (ESV): So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

This verse is tricky. It appears to be saying that the initial "calling" or "enlightening" or "drawing" by God happens first, before anyone can choose or will themselves to believe in God.

Romans 9:17 (ESV): For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 

God raised up Pharaoh (a Gentile) and put him into that special position of authority, knowing what his future evil actions would be, in order fulfill God's ultimate plan to glorify Himself by the Ten Plagues on Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea. (Paul is subtly bringing in the idea that God chooses Gentiles to accomplish His will also)

Romans 9:18 (ESV): So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

God is sovereign. He gives whatever special blessings, privileges, and positions to anyone He wishes. God chooses the basis for His decisions. He has chosen that His election will not be based on works at all, but instead will be based on faith. He has also chosen that He can select Gentiles to accomplish His will as well.

God also selects which people He will choose to harden in their sinful thinking... causing them to be even more stubborn and hard-hearted than before. In Exodus, it shows that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, then God hardened it even more.

Romans 9:19 (ESV): You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 

If God, in His sovereignty, chooses to use evil for His own good purposes, why does He still find the evil person guilty, since the evil person was merely doing God's will?

Romans 9:20-21 (ESV): But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 

Paul quotes Isaiah 45:9, which is God telling people not to question His election of Cyrus (a Gentile) to save accomplish His purpose and save the Jews. Paul is saying that it is sinful to dispute with God and say that God is making bad decisions.

God has the right to do with His creation whatever is in harmony with His own moral sense of right and wrong.

Romans 9:22-24 (ESV): What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 

God's justice requires Him to punish sinners, and His holiness urges Him to display His wrath and bring glory to His Name, but His love moves Him to be patient with us, not desiring anyone to perish. God knows beforehand which people will choose to believe, not only among the Jews, but also Gentiles.

Romans 9:25-29 (ESV): As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."

Paul has been slowly leading up to this point since the beginning of the chapter: God has the right to reject unbelieving Jews and to accept believing Gentiles, because He has chosen that the basis of salvation is faith and not works.

Romans 9:30-33 (ESV): What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." 

Paul sums up the entire chapter right there. His argument has been about the basis of salvation all along -- is it by faith or is it by works? It's the same topic he discussed in Romans chapters 3 and 4.

John Chapter 6 Examined

We will begin examining John chapter 6 at verse 25, the verse which begins the passage that some Christians believe is the foundation of the "TULIP" doctrines of Calvinism.

Calvinists say that John 6:37-45 is teaching that the "drawing" and "giving" done by God is a mysterious, secret, invisible and instantaneous change of the heart and regeneration of the dead spirit within, transforming someone from hating God to loving Him instead.

Calvinists further claim John 6 is teaching that only those who have been secretly regenerated will come to Jesus for salvation, and that the reason why people reject Jesus is because they were not regenerated by God. In Calvinism, every single person who has been "drawn" will be saved. No exceptions.

So, let us begin examining John 6 to see what it actually says.

John 6:25-27 (NET Bible):

6:25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”  6:26  Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, you are looking for me not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate all the loaves of bread you wanted.  6:27 Do not work for the food that disappears,  but for the food that remains to eternal life – the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him.”

This crowd of Jews was seeking Jesus so they could get more free food. They weren't seeking Him because they truly believed He was sent from the Father to save them and give them eternal life. Jesus wants them to realize that He was sent from God the Father and that the Father has approved Him.

John 6:28-31 (NET Bible):

6:28 So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?” 6:29 Jesus replied, “This is the deed  God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.” 6:30 So they said to him, “Then what miraculous sign will you perform, so that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 6:31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

Now the crowd is getting a little more serious about Jesus' spiritual message. They inquire to Jesus and ask what they should be doing to get eternal life from God. But, they are demanding a miracle from Jesus to prove that He was sent from God. They reason that Moses performed the miracle of raining Manna from heaven, so Jesus should be able to do something similar to prove He is from God.

John 6:32-34 (NET Bible):

6:32 Then Jesus told them, “I tell you the solemn truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but my Father is giving you the true bread from heaven. 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 6:34 So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread all the time!”

Jesus points out to them that it was not Moses who performed the miracle of the Manna, but rather was Jesus' own Father in heaven who provided the Manna. And not only did His Father provide the original Manna, He has now provided a far greater Manna-- The Son of God, the Living Bread from heaven. The people still don't get it. They think Jesus is talking about literal, physical bread.

John 6:35-40 (NET Bible):

6:35  Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. The one who comes to me will never go hungry, and the one who believes in me will never be thirsty.  6:36 But I told you that you have seen me and still do not believe. 6:37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 6:39 Now this is the will of the one who sent me – that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. 6:40 For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus is now telling the crowd of Jews that the only way to get eternal life is by spiritually and figuratively "eating" the "Living Bread" who came down from heaven-- Jesus Christ. Jesus explains in verse 36 and verse 40 that the "eating" of this "Bread" is done when a person looks on Jesus and trusts in Him.

By examining verses 39-40, we can see clearly that the ones which are "given" to Jesus by the Father, are the ones who have 'looked on the Son and believed.'

John 6:41-51 (NET Bible):

6:41 Then the Jews who were hostile to Jesus began complaining about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” 6:42 and they said, “Isn't this Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 6:43 Jesus replied, “Do not complain about me to one another. 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me. 6:46 (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – he has seen the Father.) 6:47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes has eternal life. 6:48 I am the bread of life. 6:49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 6:50 This is the bread that has come down from heaven, so that a person may eat from it and not die. 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

This crowd freaks out when Jesus says He "came down from heaven," because they've seen Jesus on earth ever since He was a child growing up, and they know His earthly parents, Joseph and Mary. Jesus points out to them that if they had truly previously been taught about the God the Father and had learned  about God, they would be coming to God's Son and trusting in Him. 

In other words, Jesus is telling the crowd this: "You may know Me and my earthly family in an earthly sense, but you don't know My real Father in a heavenly sense. If you had known and trusted My Father, you would be trusting Me now." (Compare John 5:36-44, John 8:42-47)

A person is "drawn" or "dragged" toward trusting in Jesus when they are taught the truth from the Scriptures. (Compare Romans 10:14-20, John 5:46) Many Jews had already been "dragged" toward Jesus by the preaching of John the Baptist and others. (John 5:33-35)

Again, Jesus tells them that the only way to eternal life is by "eating" the "Living Bread" (trusting in the Son of God). "Eating" is trusting. "The Bread" is Jesus.

In Summary

There is no invisible prior instantaneous "change of heart" or "regeneration of the spirit" being discussed in these verses. Rather, Jesus is saying that all of the people who have been taught about the Father from the Scriptures (and from John the Baptist and others) and have come to trust in the Father, will also come to trust in His Son and thus receive eternal life.

All those who have truly trusted the Father will trust the Son and be saved through faith. The only Jews who will be saved are those who trust the Father and the Son for salvation by faith and not by works. (Compare Romans 9:30-33)

And later, in John 12:32, Jesus is proclaiming that after His death and resurrection, all people (Gentiles and Jews) will be "drawn" or "dragged" toward the Son of God by means of the preaching of the Gospel (Compare Romans 10:13-20).

The Scriptures

One very important discussion we need to have before any other, is this: How do you view the Scriptures, and what is the proper way to interpret and understand them?

Also, do you have a preferred English Translation? Can we perhaps take a vote and all agree democratically on which Bible version to use here?

The choices for Bible translation to be used here are:

1:) The NIV

2:) The ESV

3:) The NASB

4:) The NLT

5:) The NRSV

6:) The NET Bible

Please vote in your comments for which translation we should use here.

Ground Rules for Debate

For the "Fusion" debates we are going to have on this blog, I am going to lay out some basic ground rules for discussion, in order to facilitate civility, respect, and kindness:

1:) Absolutely no name-calling or ad hominem attacks (attacking or discrediting the person making the argument instead of the argument itself).

2:) We should point out any logical inconsistencies we see and any logical fallacies we see.

3:) No hasty generalizations. (discrediting or attacking an entire group based on the actions/beliefs of a few or the stereotypes we have in our minds)

4:) No chronological snobbery. (Discounting or discrediting a belief or idea simply because it has been around for a long time)

5:) We will begin each discussion by laying out and discussing the beliefs which we AGREE ON, and then we will reason on the points that we disagree on currently.

6:) All of our discussions will be done with the ultimate goal of glorifying Jesus Christ.

The Non-Negotiables

The Bible appears to list certain doctrines as being non-negotiable, or untouchable, and further makes it sound as if you are not a genuine Christian if you don't accept, believe, and teach these essentials.

These "essential" doctrines are as follows:

1:) The true identity of Jesus Christ. (John 8:24) [But can we all agree on Jesus' true identity?]

2:) The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:1-11)

3:) Jesus coming as a true human being in real human flesh. (1 John 4:2-3)

4:) Jesus is the Son of God. (1 John 4:15; 1 John 5:5-15) [But how do we define "Son of God"]

5:) Jesus is the Messiah. (1 John 2:22; 1 John 5:1) [But how do we define "Messiah"]

6:) Salvation comes by grace through faith and not of works. (Galatians--but compare James chapter 2)

Are these the only "essential" doctrines for Christians? Do you have more you would add?

Do you agree with these? Or do you think you can still be a Christian without accepting these teachings?

Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Open Theism vs. Molinism

First off, let me begin by asking you to comment and let everyone know what your current belief system is regarding God's predestination, foreknowledge, and foreordination.

Do you consider yourself a Calvinist, Hyper-Calvinist, Moderate Calvinist, Arminian, Open Theist, Molinist, or something different?

Short Summary of Belief Systems:

Calvinism--God ordained every future event before creation. God selected only certain individuals for salvation, based on nothing good or bad within the person. God changes the pre-selected people's hearts to love God. God's saving grace is irresistible. Jesus only died for the ones who had been pre-selected for salvation.

Moderate Calvinism/Arminianism--God sees the future. He knows who will respond to the Gospel and be saved. God enlightens sinners first, thus granting them the same freedom of choice that Adam had in the beginning. People can either accept or reject Jesus. Jesus died for all people, but it only applies to those who respond in faith.

Open Theism--It is impossible for God to know the future free will choices of humans in advance. God knows everything which can be known. But this simply cannot be known in advance. So this is why God tests people, to see how they will respond. When God prophesies, He is not looking to see the future, He is stepping in to actively cause those events to take place.

Molinism--God knows every possibility of every circumstance and every different choice a human might make. God chooses to allow only one of these potential choices to occur. Or He knows which one is more likely to occur. God maneuvers people's circumstances to cause people to make certain choices.